Channels Television’s Sunday Politics anchor, SEUN OKINBALOYE, took the Minister of Works and Housing Mr Babatunde Raji Fashola up on sundry issues. The minister provided better insights into the workings of the Buhari administration. He believes the government is building the necessary foundation needed for the prosperity of the nation. He does not believe Nigeria is broke, but faces a major challenge of raising revenue from a battered people. For him, rational and discerning Nigerians will have no problem voting for the APC, in 2023, even as he threw his full chest behind Asiwaju Bola Tinubu, who for him remains the best and the candidate to beat in the coming presidential election. Demilade Adeniyi monitored the chat, excerpts:
What is the bane of funding for road projects in Nigeria? Why have most roads taken longer to complete?
Let’s talk about how democracy works actually the question is about seun let me just say it for Nigerians what they want is what their government will do for them so when we are raising some of this issues it is important that we stand up and look at the budget we don’t pay enough attention to these things ok, let us take Lagos-Ibadan express way that road passes through three states each state has three senators that’s nine senators, Lagos has 24 reps, I think Oyo has fourteen I think Ogun has nine when did all those reps sit down and say by hook by hook this is our priority and we are going to budget for it until we put this fund the infrastructure fund and the others, nothing goes. But what do you have every year, they budget ten million, five billion, which contractor mobilises for a two hundred billion plus five billion road with such amount? Do you know how much it takes to set up a construction yard, so what you budget that what you will see two hundred million for ten billion road, so these are the issues unless there are special and dedicated interventions like the Sukuk and all of that, even when the Sukuk will start it was twenty five roads, with a hundred billion, now there are seventy seven roads with two hundred and ten billion, we are getting better now everybody insists the final decision on how much you can spend lies with the parliament, so the power of the press we now have seventy seven roads struggling for two hundred and ten billion average the issue average it out three billion what does that do on those roads you are talking about will three billion build Ondo- Ado Ekiti road? It won’t.
So there is no hope for those people who are asking
Now that one can start we are looking at talking to the African development bank you have to borrow if we borrow some people will say why are you borrowing so the NNPC two task to intervene this are all initiatives trying to solve a big problem this are things we left undone for decades.
I want you to clarify some issues, the government have taken infrastructure as priority, but as a minister that has taken a huge step in that sector, can you beat your chest and say that this government has done well and has met expectations of Nigeria in that aspect?
I can beat my chest and say that have improved significantly on what we meet and the test of the pudding is simply in the eating. All of those roads where we are working, those we have completed, those we are still working on, go and ask the commuters what their experiences was before we came, go and ask them what their experience is today, and what their expectation is against December and against next year? I can say that very confidently because I have had the support of my principal, he understands that the basis of building an economy infrastructure that’s what he is doing; efficiency choice activities and that is also the way to legitimately distribute roads so you talking about infrastructure every construction site, even young bodied and able men and women ready to work go to those sites so you are moving you are supplying millions of litres of diesel, it’s not government that supply diesel it’s not the contractor, so that’s an economic exchange and eco system in opportunities so it’s more than building a bridge and a house it’s moving money around, creating wealth and opportunities.
Is the nation broke?
I don’t manage the finances of the country. I know that there has been financial headwinds globally and all the nations, or almost all the nations are facing tough economic challenge or the other access to funding is becoming challenging there are so many reasons for that and there is a global lockdown that happened during COVID, so economic activities slowed down, one of biggest production center in the world is still battling with COVID, and in a global economy today is almost like a domino effect when there is a problem in one part of the world but to the extent that you are able to access credit if you are not financially solvent and viable then you have a problem. To the extent that we are able to access credit we are still able to fund most of our obligations that we see there have been no notice of issue from our creditors and so we must also understand and I make this distinction, public finance is not home economics the challenges and the variables are different. There was a time we made so much money from oil that we paid $12 billion back to our creditors. That is a huge sum that we would have used to provide some of the infrastructure that we are currently battling with. But we had a government who was afraid of running into debt.
Because of the position you hold in this government what can you tell Nigerians about the economy which will play a central role and how do you convince Nigerians that this government is doing the right thing?
Well you see one of my favorite sayings is that let us have a conversation with right thinking and well-meaning people and I think it was a favorite saying of chief Obafemi Awolowo that not everybody will agree with you, and not also everybody has the same view about what is right but the most important thing for example no ministry can tell you that’s never happened no minister can tell you that he has all the resources to do Nigeria that doesn’t has all the resources to do all that we want to do in Nigeria so we have to make choices but given the challenges that we meet the challenges that anticipated the ones that we did not anticipate I think as far as the economy are concerned the basic foundation for projecting goods are be lead and yet people feel pain people feel discomfort and this as always been the things wether you go back to the period of indulging areas indulging awards there is a song that we song I think shortly have gone it’s always been like that glorious don’t base on the horizons and this can’t go on forever and if you put all the fundamentals in place where a one hour journey doesn’t take six hours people will become more efficient people will have choice but in that process of rebuilding there will be some pain maybe this is that pain that we are going through but at the end of it I see we are going to do that with good infrastructure we will be able to compete better all the nations we want to build are sitting on a foundation of a well established infrastructure where we build airports, highways, church, efficient broad bank and that is why our population has grown at a rate faster than we have provided infrastructure and that is what this government is focused on so it’s not infrastructure for infrastructure its infrastructure for a better country.
The questions is how much better the life of Nigerians?
Financing the budget is challenging for every country in the world show me an exemption so but in that context you see that in places where we have built infrastructure for example now values have increased that plan doesn’t belong to us so the assess value of the land owner where we have improved the infrastructure has gone up about thirty or forty percent its richer by that much amount in places where we are building jobs have emerged those jobs were not there when we came if we are not building they won’t be there i speak to this people at construction site and they say look thank the president oo but for him we wouldn’t even have a job some of them make at much ten thousand fifteen thousand three thousand five thousand daily and they are contracted into three years.
These are the segment of a bigger picture but the bigger picture are not looking good for example as much as you talk about this infrastructure the question is what are infrastructure without security?
If you want to talk about security let’s go there and see that I think that my own view my believe is that we need to have a more rigorous intellectual conversation about national security have listen to quite a number of interventions on this program I agree with some I disagree ventrymently with others I think we have to first look at security beyond guns beyond law enforcement agencies law enforcement agent don’t actually guarantee security they are certain thing that reside with us the value system for example and that is built from the homes and the management of conflicts at communal level to resolve conflict so that they don’t last beyond the night because inevitably when you bring law enforcement they have been a bridge already except sometimes and I acknowledge the fact that law enforcement can provide but the the truth of the matter is how do we ensure that conflict is reduced to the bearest minimum some of the security issues arise from land they arise from drug abuse they arise from a believe system.
Sir the question is how your government has been able to handle it?
There are security challenges and am not here to talk over that but I can tell you that when I came to Abuja in 2015 I know what the security challenges in Abuja were there was hardly a public building in Abuja that you could enter without waiting for about thirty minutes you would pass through soldiers sitting behind sand bags all of that has disappeared this economy didn’t run after 7pm all of that has disappeared more challenges has come up and they need to be addressed in 2010 there were no celebrations that could be held by the government at Tinubu square not one it used to be held at the court yard of the villa all of that is now happening those were security challenges they have been overcome new one will revolve so as new one will revolve for if time never ends so let’s understand that contexualize things and telling you that let us have an intellectual conversation a rigorous conversation crime has benefit for those who perpetuate it how do we either take down the criminals or take out the benefits or take out both and you need some intellectual people around you not just say remove the service chiefs those are the conversations we are having.
Governor Dapo Abiodun has declared an emergency on Sango Ota Abeokuta road he said his government will take over the road if the federal government is unable to fix it how do you react to this?
I have been talking to governor Abiodun for a bit and am not going to engage in mindset administrative detail here but I know that governor Abiodun is aware he is a law abiding citizen and a governor he knows that road is a federal road and I don’t know where his power to take over a federal road will come from I think the power to administer a federal high way and federal high way are rest with the minister and I have provided every support that I can that road is been funded by the suckumb there is a contractor working there Julius Berger that road was inherited by this administration and from the Lagos side work is going on I am aware that at the Ota Sango end work hasn’t progressed significantly to his satisfaction but we are limited by the resources that we have governor Abiodun has spoken to me before that he wanted to fund the road I said show me where the money is coming from where do you have the money the roads are about fifty six billion naira how much is able to show you am still waiting am sure he has something to show me that’s why he wants to take it over if you can provide the source of funding then we would go through the process of transferring a road from a federal government to a state government because there is a law that specifies how that is done so and am sure that governor Abiodun has some of his own state roads too to occupy his attention.
How do you repay and how confident are you those will be adequate to pay the facilities?
Not all the Sukuk roads are going to be tolled we announced a tolling policy for Nigeria after Afec approval and we specified and described kind of roads which will be dual carriage way the dual carriage way represents only about twenty or so percent of the national road network about two hundred thousand kilometers essentially unless it is totally unavoidable single carriage way will not be tolled the sukub is debt been taken by government but it is not conventional debt it is Islamic debt where interest is considered an usefully an haram our debt management office has contracted to take that debt and use it to finance infrastructure and in that process the suckub takes interest in the assets until the debt is liquidated that is how basically Islamic debt Islamic financing works and used globally the difference between what we are used to is the charging of interest but it is debt.
Seun I think you will need to understand with the clip that I saw about the minister of finance she didn’t say that we are in a dead crises she didn’t say that she was talking about the challenges of finances subsidy and if it was the same thing that I saw recently in the public conversation when they were convincing I think major time and financial framework the problem of financing our budget with maintenance of subsidy she didn’t say Nigeria was in a debt crisis she didn’t say that so don’t report what I don’t recall hearing unless our hear and if you hear where she said debt crisis play it let Nigeria listen to it.
Minister I will like to ask I asked a question earlier on if Nigeria is broke?
Have told you that to the best of my knowledge Nigeria is not broke been indented and been able to service your debt in conventional finance is not been broke i think you must understand that the business of lending itself is a profitable business so if nobody contracted debt where will all the banks and the financial institutions be where will they throw all the people they employ so this is a matter of credit rating and credit reputation and it is in this home economics mentality that I can’t take debt that lead us to take twelve billion dollars cash to go and pay off a debt that we would have rescheduled renegotiated when our infrastructure was dying that mentality must leave our table all of the big nations will want to compete with are contracting debt to build their infrastructure and perform competition and as long as you can service your debt you are good.
So you think Nigeria is ok with the progression of our debts?
I can confidently tell you here that am am not Nigeria minister of finance my job is to spend the money not earn it that’s my job I am concerned and every responsible Nigerian should have his eye on the debt and should be concerned the conversation to have you are reading out Lagos Ota you are reading out Ekiti, Akure where is the money going to come from should we increase taxes that’s how big it should be who should we tax more which state will say don’t do our road if there is any state that will say don’t do our road don’t do our bridge our debt obligation and finance obligation is used reduced by that reduction that’s the point so i am saying.
Do you promise Nigeria that you are going to do this do you promise Nigeria that you have the capacity?
We promise you change and we are delivering them on infrastructure and you can see them they are getting better.
2015 and now the price of commodities in the market the industries are far different from what we have today
My first question to you show me one country where the cost of living is going down that is why nations have wage reviews that’s where they do salary reviews this government has done it, it has not only done it, it have helped government state government that are not able to pay give out bill out form which Nigerian government did that in our history when there was stain we have refunded debt contracted by our predecessor for road infrastructure they are road infrastructure done we refunded almost a trillion seven hundred and something billion that’s part of the debt you are talking about it was contracted by the previous government so and let us go back how much was the price of fuel in 1999 it was twenty naira they left it at sixty five naira that a three hundred increase in percentage if that is correct so which country is the price going down this is the reality how much was the exchange rate it was about forty dollars how much did they leave it at it is the reality of life that prices are heading in wrong direction and the whole world now if facing the challenge and let us understand let us educate people if you are talking about interest rate I mean FX for example FX is a quantum of what you earn what are importing against what we are exporting and what we are demanding so if the company is not earning it central bank doesn’t print dollars it’s economist when there is an over demand for a commodity basic economist tells you the price goes up so it’s that simple if we earn more dollars the exchange rate will come down.
Security on securing this nation is what the government has promised and right now what is the case the government hiding its head in shame with the situation we have on our hands look at what happened to those that have been kidnapped and the weeping we have seen in this early Nigeria doing in Kaduna north west of the country you promised as a major agenda to secure this country would you say or what do you agree that the security is better today?
I sympathize very deeply and sincerely with everybody who has been a victim of crime have also been a victim of crime in my previous life and it’s not a nice experience and I hope that somehow this government come through for them and get them relieved but having said that Seun security is not something that I will sit down and politicize it’s like oxygen now the odds against government every time is that government has to be right all the time the criminals have to be right only once and that is why i said earlier that the security conversations require some very detailed rigor if we are not looking at values if we are not looking at how crime cases are dealt with how we can intercept that to make it unprofitable if people believe for example that you can kidnap a human being and take body parts and you can make money from human head and all of those crime things you see in this country don’t forget that sometimes it takes a long time for a problem to come to full gloom and the seeds for all of them not all of them the seeds were sown many years ago you remember that in 2001/2002 Nigeria police men went on strike maybe you don’t recall they went on strike the nation was without police man for like a week or two go back to your archives you will see it that was a warning you will see that it is the state government that are refunding and resourcing police men it didn’t start here yesterday that was also a problem so all of the basic law enforcement civilian capacity has not been meet by previous federal government and am not saying that we have also meet them and they have all accord at a time now but I maintain very seriously that until we deal with our value system until we go back following rules the religious institutions will shape values preaching miracles because some of this things are driven by that they are driven by drugs they are driven by parents us me inclusive not as involved in development of our children so it’s going to talk more than saying federal government it going to take a whole nation to come back and say this where we want to hear and I think that conversation is going to be a very expensive one.
What’s your relationship with Asiwayu Bola Ahmed Tinubu?
My relationship is good on political matter recently we spoke about some matters I think just before the Eid. I have been involved all through. I played my role all through I don’t need to be in the public space to make my intervention, to offer advice and to offer suggestions, but if at any point in time it becomes necessarily for me to do so I will do so.
If you look at the conversation between Asiwaju Tinubu Alhaji Atiku Abubakar over the weekend they are discussing issues that are at the center of their ambitions? Will you say that your former principal made a mistake in the choice of a Muslim running mate?
First and foremost for both men with whom I have had personal relationship, I think we have had avoidable exchange of words, and at best I will call it stumble, I hope it will not be a tumble, and i mean it in the sense that they should quickly get back to the issues and that is what concerns Nigerians. Let them get back to the debates we should really have how do we move ourselves to the prosperity that is immense that this country will have because I know it will happen. On who should drive that vehicle in my own opinion, Asiwaju is the best person to drive that vehicle because I have worked with him at very close quarter I know his capacity I know is tenacity and I think that sometimes we need to test some hypothesis and the opportunity to test this hypothesis is now there. My position about religion has been made known on different platforms. I think religion should be removed from public space and go back to where it belongs – to the homes and religious centers. Too much religion is in our public life and there is no nation that will wanted to be like, that is not vaporizing religion. It is a private thing, praying in public I think we should just stop it, and get down to the real business when you are in office go and do your work, look at something A or B you are suppose to lose the country I have some proofs that I did in 2014 that I would have loved to share with you, I think sometimes we should stop been afraid of fear itself if this is something that is real it will should eventually and that’s my thinking, really, look at the end of the day who cares really? We both drank water here, nobody asked who produced the water? So that’s the issue people want to drink water people wants good schools, people want good healthcare, people want good infrastructure, they want to be secured, so if you go on both side you know there is been a Christian Vice President under a Muslim president serving, people were killed in the church, priest are murdered, the same way Muslims are murdered, neither president nor the Vice President wanted those things to happen. It has very little to do with our faith, those who do it in name of our faith are not members of our faith, they don’t profess our faith both faith profess peace, those people are extremists. What are people afraid of? Let’s assume there are only two faith what representation we have not represented everybody, some people are minorities, who does not belong to both religions, they have a voice too, so let’s find a second Vice President for them.